Turning Failures into Success: A conversation with Shay Wheat of the Creating Powerful Impact Podcast

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Ever wondered how to rekindle the entrepreneurial spirit within a large corporation?

The latest episode of Creating Powerful Impact, features Danny Nathan, the visionary founder of Apollo 21, who reveals the groundbreaking strategies his company employs to do just that.

With a unique blend of management consultancy, product design, and venture studio, Apollo 21 is transforming mid to enterprise-size companies by helping them leverage cutting-edge technology for operational efficiency and new venture creation.

Danny shares his journey from the tech boom of 2007 to his impactful roles in startups, culminating in the creation of Apollo 21.

Imagine turning chaos into order within just six weeks. Danny recounts an inspiring story of a Western sports company that managed to unify disjointed data from multiple acquisitions using a revolutionary tech stack called Mission Control.

What started as a mess of CSV files evolved into a comprehensive internal CRM, streamlining everything from e-commerce to rodeo event management. We also delve into the perks of a Results-Oriented Work Environment (RHO), where trust, flexibility, and accountability drive productivity and work-life balance.

Success isn’t just about the end goal; it’s about the journey, complete with its failures and lessons.

Danny sheds light on the importance of a customer-centric approach in product development, ensuring that solutions are validated with real customer pain points before moving forward.

Embracing failure and managing time expectations are pivotal themes we explore, reframing setbacks as valuable learning opportunities that steer you toward future success.

Tune in to hear Danny’s insightful strategies and how they can fuel impactful outcomes in your business and life.

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Transcript:

the one that I Still Point at from back

then that really um set off my radar I

guess was Purple Cow by Seth Goen uh

great read and was just one of the first

um texts I won't say textbooks one of

the first texts that I read that uh gave

me that light bulb moment it was a real

aha of oh my God somebody else is

thinking about things in the same way

that I am uh I'm not alone here and this

doesn't align to what I learned in

college or AD school or anything like

that um and so that was sort of a

kicking off point uh

[Music]

hello hello and welcome to another

episode of creating powerful impact I'm

your host sha wheat founder of graceon

ease Productions where we support

entrepreneurs just like you with

event-based marketing and sales

strategies allowing you to build your

Authority your credibility and your

visibility in your industry and today's

guest is Danny his name is actually

Danny Nathan and he is the founder of

Apollo 21 now this company is really

pretty dang unique and so I'm going to

have to have him explain what it is they

really really do right because I'm like

oh Danny you're gonna have to talk about

this more but the bit of the bio here is

a unique company that sits at the

intersection of a management

consultancy product design studio and

Venture

studio in doing so they help organ

organizations ReDiscover an

entrepreneurial spirit and establish a

culture of innovation please help me

welcome Nathan to the creating powerful

impact stage how are you I'm good thanks

I'm happy to be here thank you I'm I'm

excited to have you here and would you

please explain to us what in the world

do you mean by sitting at the

intersection of a management consultancy

product design studio and Venture Studio

what does that mean absolutely so uh in

the most simple terms as a company we

are a venture Builder so we help

companies organizations and ourselves

build and launch new companies and new

products usually with some sort of

Technology bent uh and then the other

thing that we do is help companies use

technology to solve problems of some

sort usually operationally focused so we

get a lot of clients that come to us

with um some sort of operational problem

uh in the past that has been anything

from our MVP technology stat can't

support our growth anymore can you help

us tear it to pieces and rebuild it from

the ground up uh we've had folks come to

us with a very simple ask of we're

drowning an email can you help um and

that was a really interesting one

because what we found was the reason

they were drowning in emails because

they had no clearly defined process

whatsoever and so their process was when

you need something send an email well

you can imagine how that goes um and

then we've also helped companies launch

entirely new products and new product

lines so we've worked with a delivery

only restaurant company for example to

help them migrate from the direct to

Consumer to the uh B2B catering space um

we have worked with folks in the western

Sports space to help them create

technology that both help them run their

business and also connect Rodeo athletes

and fans more closely um so we we do a

lot so um yeah the gamut of anybody who

really just kind of has an idea or a

problem that they're wanting to utilize

technology to support them in getting

out of that pain in that problem is that

right uh in very simple terms yes we

tend to focus on working with mid to

Enterprise siiz companies um a lot of

folks immediately say oh you must work

with a ton of startups and we do and we

have uh that's kind of the Venture

Studio side of our business but our

primary um ICP If you will is uh folks

in midsize to larger organizations who

are looking to scale and either they

aiming for a new product that is

additive to their existing portfolio or

they're looking to explore the

possibilities of launching a new Venture

either within or outside of the walls of

whatever they've built to date

interesting how in the world do you get

into this line of

work it's been a uh roller coaster of a

career and a very roundabout experience

I I actually started in advertising on

the creative side and very quickly

realized that I didn't enjoy doing that

as a career and so I um took it upon

myself to find a way out basically and

so I I did a couple of things I gave

myself kind of a a crash course MBA by

reading a stack of books about as tall

as I was and looking to um help find

ways to articulate my view of the world

so that I could then share that with

people who might be interested and

willing in uh to hire me and that landed

me at an innovation consultancy here in

New York where I spent about 5 years

helping to grow that practice and that

was really a pivotal moment in my career

because it was the first place that I

had worked that um to put it bluntly was

willing to say no to clients whose

thought processes didn't align to the

way that we wanted to do work it was a

really interesting time in the world of

technology this was uh right around 2007

when I joined them and so we were seeing

uh social media really becoming an

established communication uh platform we

were uh looking at the to the iPhone

which had just happened and then

subsequently the App Store that came out

a year later um and so it was just a

really interesting time to be working

with companies to rethink how technology

and brand could work together to

ingratiate customers and in our minds

really to add value to their lives so

that they would then look more highly

upon that

organization and so I did that for a

while that really introduced me to the

world of startups and Entrepreneurship

and I've been been hooked in that space

ever since so I have bounced around a

number of startups usually in aead of

product type of role and uh eventually

at my last company where I was serving

as head of product um we took on outside

funding and one of the stipulations for

that was that we had to help some of

their other portfolio companies with

their technology and so I became kind of

a deao SWAT team leader that bounced

around a few of those other companies

doing really much of what I do today but

without a company behind it um just kind

of helping out across the portfolio and

that eventually led to some folks at

that organization taking notice and sort

of saying hey this seems to sort of suit

you would you like to go and focus on

this and so that led to the creation of

Apollo 21 that's amaz I love how like

the universe just ends up moving you

along to get to where you really need to

be right and like where you start to

shine and and that Innovation piece of

it coming out that's amazing I want to

backtrack a minute so you said you read

a stack of books as tall as yourself yes

um do you have like top one top three

that you would recommend for people that

are are like your go-tos or the ones

that you always go back to uh I do uh

some of those have changed over time so

you know recall this was as I mentioned

in about 2007 and so the books that were

poignant at that time may or may not

resonate quite so heavily today um the

one that I still point at from back then

that really um set off my radar I guess

was Purple Cow by Seth Goden uh great

read and was just one of the first um

texts I won't say textbooks but one of

the first texts that I read that uh gave

me that light bulb moment it was a real

aha of oh my God somebody else is

thinking about things in the same way

that I am uh I'm not alone here and this

doesn't align to what I learned in

college or AD school or anything like

that

um and so that was sort of a kicking off

point um and then more recently uh you

can't talk startups and Entrepreneurship

without throwing Lean Startup on the

table um it's just sort of the go-to

guide and even that is starting to feel

a little bit dated sorry Eric Reese but

you know we're we're starting to see

some folks question there um that being

said I have been highly guided of Late

by uh lean customer development by Cindy

Alvarez as I'm sorry I'm looking over

here because my books are sitting right

next to me as they should be yes and uh

lean Enterprise was also an excellent

read um both that are very highly

focused on the entrepreneurial space and

how um particularly with lean Enterprise

how larger organizations can take

advantage of a startup like mentality

and establish the type of culture that

um I certainly believe works well for

helping companies

uh find a footing in The Innovation

space and grow and Thrive by creating

new things and looking forward as

opposed to getting stuck in the um

processes that have led them to where

they are today so good okay uh everybody

write those books down rewind go pick

them up because they there's a couple of

them that I haven't heard of so I'm

definitely gonna have to watch this

again and and take oh I can keep going

I've got I've been on a reading kick

lately so uh the stack over here I just

um I'm on more of like a leadership one

right now so I just read the motive um

which is really really fascinating

because the first part of it starts with

this Fable and one of the characters

name is actually sheay and it's spelled

the same way as my name and I was like

what fudge are you kidding me it's a guy

but whatever right we'll just over that

that's fine whatever that but yeah it

was really really fascinating how he

started it with the fable and then the

second half of the book is the

implementation and how do you actually

utilize it and the questions to be

asking yourself from a leadership

perspective I thought it was really

fascinating and it's funny that you're

I'm sorry I don't mean to interrupt it's

funny that you're pointing out a fable

because I was just recommended this book

which you kind of can't see but it's

called getting naked a business Fable oh

no kidding okay have you started it yet

I finished it it's great is it good it's

good it's all about um giving of

yourself to gratiate customers

effectively so it was written by a guy

who uh worked in a big consulting

company that did things very by the book

and they purchased a much smaller kind

of upstart consulting firm and he was

tasked with learning about why that firm

was successful as a small upstart and um

he goes on to talk about his learning

experience with this new firm and how

different they approached the world of

Consulting to what he was used to and uh

long story short by the end of it of

course he is uh you know fully on board

with this new approach and has now made

it you know a part of his career yeah oh

so good so good well I do want to also

kind of wrap back around to Apollo 21

yes and the whole technology piece of it

how is it that you guys are really like

utilizing technology to create that

operational efficiency for your clients

so that depends entirely on what the

operational need is and so when we talk

about technology generally technology is

the deliverable that we create and

produce for our clients so it's less

about us utilizing or installing

technology and more about understanding

what the operational needs are where the

pain points are operationally or where

the opportunities are in terms of growth

and Innovation and then Building

Technology to support those needs and so

um I mentioned earlier I think I

mentioned earlier that we've done some

work for a western Sports comp company

for example um they came to us and said

hey we have data from five recent

acquisitions and we don't know what to

do with it we can't you know it's all

sitting in csvs on somebody's computer

we can't look at it we can't compare it

we don't know what we have help and so

the very first thing that we did that

ended up turning into about a year-long

engagement was um within about six weeks

we stood up an instance of a platform

that we own called mission control which

is a wholly owned technology stack that

we've created and into that we ingested

all of this data that they had received

and uh basically made it visible

editable searchable actionable and

created a way for them to start gaining

Insight from the data that they had so

that they could utilize it as their

company moved forward oh that's

fantastic so before it was just in a CSV

file and now you can actually utilize it

was in about a 100 CSV files it was

scattered across everything you know

they were all different formats and

things and so we took it all normalized

it ingested it made it so that they

could see it search it filter it export

it uh and then look at all of the

analytics around it and so this was

anything from ticket buyers for past

rodeo events that they had now bought

the organization that that runs uh to

magazine subscribers to uh e-commerce

purchases and everything in between and

so effectively we we built a platform

that allowed them to make sense of it

and then as we continued working with

them we extended that platform to

effectively become their internal CRM

and um kind of analytics tracking

platform so all of their e-commerce

activities flowed data into our system

uh all of the ticket buying for the

rodeo that they had purchased and were

continuing to produce uh went through

our platform and then we continued to

build out functionality for um Market

operations allowing them to filter email

send SMS messages uh you know things

like that for promotional purposes and

then um eventually extended that into

what actually became a platform for the

management and production of rodeo

events so one of the organizations that

they bought was a um a barrel racing

kind of oversight committee and they

were producing 600 Barrel races a year

and so any existed neither did I but

apparently if you're uh you know if

you're in a place where barrel racing is

a thing um you know fairly often you can

go out for your your weekend Barrel race

and so you know they're doing that

regionally across the country and in

aggregate it's about 600 different

events a year and of course putting

those events on keeping track of the

results helping people understand their

standings within their region and the

nationally and so on and so forth

becomes a pretty daunting data task and

so uh all of that then got integrated

into this data platform for operations

that now underpins their business wow

that's amazing congratulations on taking

all of that just random information and

creating something that's now supporting

them in either buying more companies and

supporting their clientele really when

it comes down to it in the end at a

higher level I love that now um I

believe you operate your company um

fully remote and you call it row results

oriented work environment how in the

world do you guys do that and what do

you think is the success and how do you

keep it successful because I think a lot

of our listeners have very remote I have

a remote um company myself there my

team's all over the place but how does

it that you make it successful in your

world so for us uh we've been remote

since day one so it's the only way that

we have operated and for for me

operating a row a results oriented work

environment is really about trust

flexibility and accountability so as far

as I'm concerned as long as you're

showing up at the meetings that you know

you need to be in to communicate with

the team I don't care where you are I

don't care when you get the rest of your

work done if you're one of those people

that wants to work from 8:00 p.m. to

8:00 am. fine as long as you're your

9:00 am meeting so that we know what's

going on um and what it what it does for

us is really helps to define the culture

that um we operate on so I have a team

that knows that when they need to go

pick up their kids they don't need to

ask for permission they don't need to

tell me where they're going they don't

need to do any of that they can go and

pick up their kids or if they want to go

take a vacation for example you know

again as long as they're communicating

with the rest of the team and making

sure that the work that they're

responsible for is being managed while

they're away that's great go do what you

need to do go take your mental health

break go you know hang with your kids go

for a run go get coffee with your spouse

like I don't hair is really what it

comes down to as long as you're being

productive and so again to me that comes

down to trust and accountability so I

hire people who I trust to do their jobs

well and to maintain an understanding of

what the overarching Strategic goal is

that we are operating towards both for

ourselves and for our clients and then

we hold people accountable to achieve

the things that are put in front of them

and as long as that's happening the rest

of it to me doesn't really matter much

yeah right I've heard some people um

call it like batteries included where

it's like they've got their own drive

internal to go and get their stuff done

but if they need go here there whatever

but they know how to get their stuff

done and when they needed to get it done

by and they're holding themselves

accountable right it's like okay great

the batteries are already included we

don't have to put the batteries into you

we don't have to get you excited about

it we don't have to like pull you along

to do it you have it within you to make

it happen right right I like that I

might have to borrow that one

because I know when I said it you're

like wait a minute what does that

actually mean yeah it caught me off

guard I was going huh okay but yeah no

that makes sense and I I I dig that oh

so if we stick on the team side for a

minute what is kind of your processes in

terms of like developing new products

and new

Ventures um that that depends on the

opportunity in front of us and who we're

working with but generally speaking we

have a relatively clear-cut process that

we use

for every project that we're approaching

and it starts with generally a discovery

period which is usually a 4-week process

for us and it's an opportunity for us to

interrogate what's happening on the

client side to ensure that we very

clearly understand what the business

goals are that they're trying to achieve

and it gives us the time that we need to

learn as much about their business as we

can in a relatively concise time period

because when push comes to shove folks

hire us because we are experts at

helping them utilize the process that

we've established to accomplish growth

in some measure either new Venture new

product or problem solving that enables

scale because it takes away from people

time for example um and so that

Discovery process is where we uh sort of

ground ourselves in what's going on and

then coming out of that we focus very

heavily on customer development so um

one of the things that I have found

throughout my career as an entrepreneur

is that a lot of folks take the Lean

Startup methodology for example and they

try to move through it as quickly as

possible in part because some of what is

advocated for within Lean Startup is the

idea of speed and um you know move fast

and break things and I think we're

reaching a point where move fast and

break things isn't necessarily the right

approach it's more about move fast learn

as much as possible so that you don't

have to break anything and so the

customer development approach adds a ton

of rigor to discovering what customers

are lacking or what the pain points are

that you could solve for and starting

out broadly and then narrowing in over

the course of that customer development

period to uh first understand the

problem and the opportunity and then

begin to define a solution that you are

validating it every single step of the

way with customers by talking to them so

that by the time you sit down to design

something to write your first line of

code etc etc you know exactly what it is

you're building you already have

validation that people are interested in

buying it and often you already have

your first 10 20 50 customers lined up

because you've talked to them already

and somebody said to you oh my God

you're going to solve that problem for

me for the love of God call me when

you're done please that's kind of like

the market research right you're

actually asking them what it is they

want and then you create it and deliver

it to them it's there's a there's a fine

point there Shay it's not as much about

asking them what they want it's about

asking them where their pain and emotion

lies so where are you having trouble

getting something done because uh it's

interesting I actually just wrote about

this the other day the problem that

people point out when you talk about

asking them what they want is the faster

horse fallacy if you ask people what

they want they'll tell you that they

want a faster horse and where I begin to

disagree with that is yes they probably

will tell you that they want a fast your

horse but as the person creating the

solution to the problem it's your job to

understand not your customers that a

faster horse might have an engine in

wheels and not four legs and eat hay so

that's kind of the dividing line between

asking them what they want versus asking

them questions that allow you to unveil

sort of what they need and then provide

them that stealth transformation so if

they're coming in for what they think

that need and want but really you

understand what they actually need and

want that stealth transformation that

you're opening their eyes to and then

can deliver yeah and it's let's be clear

it's not always stealthy I mean like I

said we had a client that came to us and

said we're drowning an email can you

help and the solution was to understand

their business and Define and create

their process with a piece of technology

behind it that helped them adhere to and

manage the process that they had defined

and so if you ask them what they wanted

they would have said we want less emails

but the thing that they needed was some

sort of clear-cut process definition and

a piece of technology in this case or

something that would help them adhere to

the process that they have said will

work for them and of course you may not

get it right the first time but that's

where learning and iteration comes into

play yeah is that essentially like the

next step because I kind of stopped you

halfway through I think uh where

you're yeah so we go through the

customer development process by the end

of which hopefully we have a very clear

idea of what somebody needs to solve a

problem and is willing to pay for to

solve that problem then part of what

differentiates us and you called this

out earlier in in the intro you know we

talk about living at the intersection of

a management consultancy and a product

design studio and the management

consultancy part is the understanding

the problem digging in to understand

that when you tell me you have too many

emails the real problem is a lack of

process for example and then the prod

product design studio side is we have a

full of executional capabilities and a

team who is highly experienced at

actually building the thing unlike a lot

of management consultancies who will

hand you a 200 Page report and say here

here's what we found we think you should

do this have fun I hate

those I see that with a lot of marketing

companies right and it's like I just had

somebody go yeah um we've spent you know

$75,000 with them so far this year and I

have nothing to show for it and I'm like

oh my gosh if you spent $500 with me I'm

making you a million dollars you know

what I'm saying like or Beyond with our

events right like I am getting you crazy

awesome results so yeah exactly move

that money around my goodness I love

that right so we focus highly on

actually getting to the point where we

can create something or at least set

somebody up to go and create it

themselves or with somebody else and you

know I'll be clear we're not beholden to

our clients working through the creation

of a thing with us if if they want to

get through the customer Discovery

process and um or the customer

development process excuse me and

understand what it is they need and go

somewhere else to have that buildt

that's

fine perfect perfect well I mean my

goodness Danny you've dropped so many

diamonds for us today um unfortunately

we've got to start wrapping up is there

any way that if people are like I'm

super excited I I have an idea I want to

talk to you about that and if you guys

can help us um what's the best way for

people to get in with you and do you

happen to have any kind of resources

that you want to provide today

absolutely so uh if you want to reach

out to us it's very easy hello apollo2

doio uh and then if you want to dig into

the resources that we have we have a

stack of case studies and white papers

and articles and things of that sort on

our website which is Apollo 21 the

number two number

one. um so plenty of helpful resources

there that folks are welcome to dig into

um and then of course we're active on

all of the usual socials both myself

personally I am blah blah blah among

many on just about everything and Apollo

21 is present on most of the social

media platforms as well some more

actively than others but we're there um

so yeah come check us out I love it I

love it uh my last question for you what

is a takeaway or a memorable note you'd

like to leave our audience with I so I

have two that I'd like to share and I'll

start with the first one this is a bit

of a personal mantra for me and it is

fail beautifully and to me that is a

constant reminder that if you want to

accomplish something you have to try and

if you are trying you are going to fail

at some point I'm not saying you're

going to fail holistically but at some

point in the process you will hit a

moment of failure and to me those are

moments to be embraced because they're

learning experiences you know we're

taught from a young age that failure is

a negative thing and that inherently if

you have failed you have done something

bad and I don't believe that at all I

believe that if you have failed you have

learned you have figured out a way that

didn't work and therefore set yourself

up hopefully to understand what to try

next so my first is failed beautifully

and my second much quicker piece of

advice is it will always take longer

than you think it will doesn't matter

what it is it will take longer this is

true oh my God Danny thank you so much

for being with us on the show today and

I want to thank our audience for joining

us on another episode of creating

powerful impact I'm excited for you to

take all these lessons and resources

that you've learned here today start

implementing them and create even more

impact in your world until next time

have an outstanding rest of your day

take

care thank you so much for listening to

the creating powerful impact podcast if

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