From Challenges to Solutions: Tackling Client Issues and Processes with Sam Drauschak of The Process Lab Podcast

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Transcript:

let's be clear our clients know their business far better than we ever [Music]

will Sam draw Shack here and today I'm excited to have Danny Nathan with us

Danny is the founder of Apollo 21 a unique company that sits at the intersection of an innovation

consultancy and product design studio the team at Apollo 21 helps clients ideate and build new products and the

ventures that support them and guides teams through the operational and cultural impacts of fostering entrepreneurial spirit and growing a

culture of innovation Danny thanks for coming in welcome to the show thank you for having me I'm excited for our Chad

here yeah absolutely so Danny was telling me that he's been solving major process problems for his clients for a

while and here on business therapy we love focusing on the challenges of business process because you know we

know that that's one of the most vexing things that blocks you from scaling and growing and reaching your goals so I'm goingon to go ahead and throw it over

you Danny tell us kind of what you've been seeing from a process problem perspective and how you've got a perspective to solve that yeah

definitely so um you know it's interesting we do have clients come to us often with process problems and um

one of the most interesting things about that for me is that often they don't even really realize that what they have as a process problem they come to us

with like a symptomatic problem and go um I'll give you a perfect example we worked with a financial services client

who came to us and literally their ask of us initially was we're drowning in emails can you help and what we found

out as we began to dug in with dig in with them was that it really was a process problem because email was their

process and so of course you look at that and this was a customer facing company for whom most of their

interactions with customers started with email and so between customers emailing them every time they needed something

and then all of their internal processes being uh grounded in email you can immediately see why somebody would be

drowning an email and so um I'm happy to dig into it and answer any questions but

the long and short of it was we ended up outlining for them excuse me Sam uh we

ended up outlining for them and kind of digging in to understand what exactly they wanted their process to look like

and then to build a bespoke piece of technology for operational purposes that

would guide all of their activities through the processes that they wanted to instill within their organization and

we've done that not just in the financial services space but we've done that time and again we've had clients

come to us um who have you know discovered product Market fit by cobbling together a bunch of different

existing pieces of technology and sort of going okay we're going to worry about making it work better later let's just

make it work first and then often they will come to us when they hit that inflection point of okay we know it

works we're ready to sort of pour fueled on the fire and see where it goes and know that we're ready to scale but we

also know that based on the limitations of the cobbled together technology stack that we've built the only way for us to

achieve that growth is to throw more bodies at it or to rebuild our operational platform and so as I said

we've done that time and again where somebody comes to us with a problem like that that is aligned to process and says

okay either we know what we want our process to be or we don't have any idea what we want our process to be but we

know we need it can you help and so that's a lot of the the work that we end up helping our clients with yeah and

it's funny because and I keep hearing the words you saying like we end up doing it even if they want something and

and and the funny thing is and this is where a lot of people have frustration where they articulate that this is a

process problem and and it sounds like you know that problem well in your in your Consulting and actually before we

even answer the question can you just give maybe a I know we just had it in your intro but I'd love to hear a little bit more what is the remit of your of

your agency maybe let's just ground there for like you know 30 seconds or so yeah that's probably a good starting point so um as you pointed out I run a

company called Apollo 21 I I tell people that we sit roughly at the intersection of an innovation consultancy and a

product design studio but the way that that often comes to life for us is helping companies evaluate and

understand the problem spaces within their organization be it process or otherwise and then helping them Envision

opportunities for how to fix that and then building the technology that then provides that solution and so in some

cases that is us coming in to help understand what the processes are that exist today where the problems within

those processes lie and then figuring out how to fix those problems and build technology to support that solution

solution other times that might look like we want to build a new product so that we can tap into a new market or uh

explore a new business model things like that but since we're talking about process here I figured I'd kind of focus

on the process side of our business so that's a lot of what we do um we have

actually built a piece of foundational technology that we own and operate that we call mission control that provides

the foundation for a lot of our process oriented projects and so um I lik in

Mission Control to like a box of Technology Legos so you need uh ro-based

access we've got a ro-based access module you need data ingest and analytics um displays we've got modules

for data ingest and analytics and so when a new client comes to us once we understand the problem at hand we take

that box of Technology Legos we dump it on the floor and we pick out the exact pieces that we want and we build a

spaceship or a fire engine or you know a new piece of technology using those pieces that uh hopefully solves their

problem and you know in the process helps them establish the processes that they need got it yeah and in doing that

so a lot of the work and the way you were describing it it ends up becoming process work so I want to start at a high level like you're solving

fundamental process problems whatever the solution they're asking whatever how does that conversation usually go with your clients how do you get them to the

the point quickly where they understand that you actually don't have an email problem you have a process problem what does that conversation look like for you

uh that conversation really happens over kind of a number of conversations but depending on how clear our client is on

where their problem lies sometimes that just starts with us interviewing people within the organization so hey I've

heard you're drowning an email why are you drowning an email how many emails do you get a day what are those emails about uh how do you wish that somebody

would you know contact you for this particular part of the process if it weren't going to happen in email where

does the process break down things like that other folks come to us and they know they have a process problem and

they just want help solving it that gets us you know two steps down the road where we can go okay cool we know we're

dealing with a process problem ultimately we still end up talking to a lot of people understanding what the

process is today where it's breaking down and helping them figure out how they want to streamline that process so

that it works for their organization and so really the long and short answer is it comes down to talking to a lot of

people understanding the pain points and then working with them to Envision what the solutions to those pain points Point

are that fit within the way that they want to be operating so you know some

some clients might want to get a th emails a day because then they don't have to do anything other than check

their email all the time and that's great and we could figure out how to integrate your email with mission

control or whatever other piece of technology you know we're not beholden to uh to something that we've built but

there are ways to handle you know I want to be dealing with things via email I want to be able to text my clients to

get this I I want you to build a software platform that I never have to leave and that will deal with all of the

email and all of the text messaging on its own without my ever having to go into my email and so really it comes

down to learning and understanding where those opportunities and those desires lie that will help that particular team

increase their efficiency and operate better so that they can uh increase

their business footprint without needing to hire a ton more people or so that they can go and hire a ton more people

but they can do so knowing that those people will be as efficient as they possibly can right so I love the

perspective you're talking about because a lot of what I heard in that was there's not a right or wrong answer a lot of the time right as long as the

process is functioning correctly and that's the part of creativity and solutions and what people I I feel they're always in this mindset of tell

me the right solution but the answer to that question is always tell me your process first because you need to know

how many people what they're doing what's going on and like you said in your answer you have that's mostly going

to land in the same place which which is I need to talk to your people I need to do some sort of Discovery and in that it seems like you're kind of articulating

almost a standard process Improvement framework that your agency's building yes absolutely I mean let's be clear

every time we have a client that comes to us with a problem the first thing that we start with is what usually looks like about a month of Discovery and so

it is uh about four weeks of us interviewing internal stakeholders interviewing customers potentially to

understand how the process then overlaps with the customer experience because obviously while we want to build a

process that works internally if that process that works internally breaks down when it comes to the customer engagement then it's not a solution it's

building another problem and so obviously the last thing we want to do is solve One Thing by creating another

problem um and then of course you know we go through that process of understanding where those problem spots

lie what the process looks like today and then from there the remainder of the time during our Discovery sort of

branches off and might look a little bit different for each client it might be that we then run Workshop or a design

Sprint or something of that sort where we can ideate together what the potential Solutions are prototype those

Solutions and then get to a point where we can literally put something in front of internal stakeholders customers Etc

and say to them hey before we go and spend the time to build the working version of this like click through our

really ugly screens here and just tell us like if it feels right and that allows us to very quickly discover where

value is what the ultimate solution might look like and helps us limit how

much we need to build out of the gate so that we're not proposing a yearlong engagement of building a new process

machine but rather we can say okay what can we get done in the next month two

months three months that will have material impact and add value to your organization immediately so that we can

then understand cool we defined a process that looks like this we decided to cut off that little sliver to start

with with we're going to build that we're going to get your feedback on it we're going to figure out if it works and then we're going to iterate on it

from there so that if we do end up spending a year working together it's not a year-long process of us working on

something and then pulling back the curtain and going Tada here it is we really hope we got it right because I

can guarantee you if that were the case we wouldn't get it right there's no question you cannot spend a year building something and expect that at

the end of the year it's going to be perfect I'd rather spend a month building something and find out where it's not perfect so that we can then

spend the next month fixing it yeah and and I love that and I love I love this whole piece I mean here at business

therapy and tral we're a huge proponent of you know Discovery and then analysis and then what you're you're saying is

like let's be realistic about iterations that are adding value like the true agile methodology right like we don't

need this big bang thing where's the next step but you got to know where you are to make the next step and that's why

that Discovery piece is so important so my question for you especially you seem very well versed in that cycle if if a

client comes you with a problem though and your response is let's do a month worth of Discovery how are you getting that through the front door because how

do you how do you translate to somebody that that's where you need to go and you need to make that investment because I find a lot of times this is where we

struggle right clients struggle because they want you to give them the solution they want you to give them the Magic

Bullet a lot of people kind of are resistant to hey I don't want to look at what's going on right now that's not what I'm asking you to do why why take a

month in Discovery that seems like a big ass I'm wondering how you navigate those conversations how do you solve that problem uh

I'll be honest that we don't run into that problem terribly often usually if somebody's coming to us yeah usually if

somebody's coming to us they're coming to us I to be frank often they have tried to solve this problem a number of times and so their frustration level is

so high because they've tried one two three four times to come to a solution that when you come to them and say okay

well we can help you solve it but it's going to take a month of you know just understanding what the problem is they're going fine I don't care what it

takes get me to the end state of solving the problem and you know the side of that Sam and I'll I'll be very blunt

here is if we go to talk to a client and a month of Discovery work is a major problem in our workflow for them they're

not going to be a good fit for us stop yeah exactly bad client and it's a red flag for us and you know I like look a

month might sound like a long time but four weeks go really quickly and when we're cramming in stakeholder interviews

customer interviews a walk through of every piece of how the process flows today then we're diagramming out how

they want the process to work then we're working with them to map out what that solution is that aligns to that process

like that doesn't happen in two days that takes time and so again if somebody can't bother to take four weeks or

whatever to work with us to get to a very very clear understanding of the problem the need and the potential

solution we're not going to be successful in building that solution for them and so at that point I'd rather just go hey if you don't want to spend

four weeks to help us get to the point where we can help you good luck solving your problem that I need that on a

plaque I should make that on a plaque with your name you don't have time for Discovery I don't have time for you that's really that should be the that

should be the message yeah I mean it kind of is yeah I love it I love it I and I think I think to me that comment

really encapsulates what I believe at least personally in this work which is that if you can't take the time to

understand your process you're never going to get anywhere you just can't like how can you iterate from A to B if you don't know what a is it's very

difficult right or if you come to me say something's broken like I mean imagine it like this your car starts making a

weird noise you're not a mechanic so you take your car to a mechanic and you say to the mechanic the car is making a

weird noise do you then get angry when the mechanic says okay pop the hood like

no I mean you can't expect the mechanic to look at your old mobile and go oh yeah that squeal is coming from the carburetor back there you know like no

they're gonna have to take a look you know the discovery period for us is the equivalent of popping the hood yeah

makes sense so how do you help how do you help people through Discovery so I know like you said there's a month there

if you could share any insight I'd love to hear what does process Discovery look like for you do you have your own process mapping language how do you do

process Maps or process diagrams like what does that phase look like because I know a lot of people are challenged with articulating their own process right and

that's where so that's where that kind of stakeholder interview period comes in so um Discovery for us is both a very

defined well it is a very defined process that then Loosely allows us to tackle that process however we might

need to for that given project and so you know the first thing that we try to do is listen to the problem that's being

articulated and take the time to ask the right questions to understand whether the problem that's being articulated is

a symptomatic result of a deeper problem or is actually the problem that we need to go and

solve and you know sometimes that can be answered in a 20-minute chat and

sometimes that literally requires okay well I need to talk to your Finance team I need to talk to your fulfill team I

need to talk to your Communications team I need to talk to your legal team because depending on what your process is and what your company's goals are

those people all might be involved in that process and so you know part of it

is just part of it is just taking the time to do the work of okay I need to

talk to all of those people and you know we take really careful notes about the

things that we hear from those people and we do it in you know we do it in fig Jam usually but the point here we do it

in a collaborative workspace where our clients have access to it and that way

you know if we're if we're walking into a client engagement usually we'll have a primary point of contact on the client side who then helps us gain access into

the into the deeper parts of the organization as needed and so that person then of course wants to be kept

up to date on what we're discovering and how things are going and so having a communal place where we can collect all

of the feedback that we're hearing and then start diagramming and sort of um jotting out our thoughts and ideas and

the the kind of inklings of solutions um help us visualize and then therefore

share some sort of visualization with the client of what we are discovering along the way and so by doing that it

helps us ground within our client organization what we're seeing what we're finding and where the problem

points are so that they can see it and go oh interesting you know I never I never

knew that legal had a problem with that part of the process because I don't deal with legal in that part of the process

process and so it's almost a requirement to get everybody on the same page so that they all understand what the impact

of their portion of the thing that they own is on the person after them how

they're affected by the person before them Etc and then eventually what we end up with with is okay here's a list of

the processes that are most problematic and we usually try to document as many as we can but then we work with our

client to go through some sort of prioritization where we go okay in talking with people we've got a list of 10 different processes or problems or

whatever that we could tackle within your org what are the three that are the most problematic for you you know we

which of these three could we solve that would make your operations you know 80%

more efficient almost overnight that would save you the most amount of money that would streamline your customer

offering more than any of the others and we look for the things that are the most impactful opportunities across the

identified issues and then we start with those and that comes back to that kind of iterative Outlook so you know I don't

I never want to walk into a client and go hey we've identified 10 problems we're going to walk away for the next year and solve them for you because then

you know you get two months in and somebody's going hey we're paying these guys how much every month and we haven't heard from them or we haven't seen

anything tangible or where you know where's the impact I'd rather go in and go okay this one thing at the top of

your list of 10 of which we've identified three that's the one that we're going to start with because you've told us that it is the most impactful

and we're going to work with them to figure out how to solve that and so you know we go through stakeholder interviews that might include some

customer interviews and things like that depending on what the process is and where it impacts customers and then

that's where it sort of leads into that um design Sprint opportunity or the workshopping opportunity to go okay this

is the top thing that we've identified let's sit down as a group and let's be clear our clients know their business

far better than we ever will and we don't claim to be an expert in the area that our client is business for we claim

to be an expert in helping them find where the problem spots are and fix them and so we do that alongside our clients

because they know better than we do where the opportunities are and what the fixes should look like we just help them

sort of form articulate and then ultimately build whatever that thing is

and so that Discovery process ends up being you know talking to lots of people

ideating Solutions prototyping that Sol solution sometimes that lead then leads into a very deep customer development

process where um you know we want to ensure that the process that we're envisioning aligns to customer needs Etc

and then we start building and it sounds like a huge mess and like it takes forever but like I said it's usually contained within four weeks and by the

end of four weeks we understand your business inside out maybe not to the extent that your employees do but

certainly well enough to provide some opinions and we understand where there's opportunities for techn techology to

impact your business and your processes and that's where we come in and shine is

okay cool we know that you know we can remove email by building an internal platform that manages this process that

has a field where you enter client name client receipt client whatever blah blah blah blah you know like we can build a

piece of technology that is then designed around that process and that's where we shine okay and you say that's

where we shine but it sounds I'd be interested to know because you just went through a lengthy discussion I appreciate on Discovery side how much of

the problem is actually solved by you just having that structured and really disciplined and sharp viewpoint on how

to do Discovery how to help them identify what they're looking at and and get the right problem because it sounds like that's a big part of the Consulting

right yes yes and you're right I'm I appreciate that because you're probably right I am short changing my team a

little bit in uh and not claiming that that's part of where the magic happens um the the reason that I say that that's

where we shine or why I kind of lean towards the second part is The Upfront

is where a lot of the understanding comes to bear and it's often where we figure out what we think the solution

should look like the problem is that if we were to stop there we have then performed the uh the cardinal sin that

most Consulting companies are guilty of which is hey we've identified the problem and we think we know how to fix

it have fun and we leave and nobody likes that because then you're going cool I just paid you I spent a month

working with you thank you you told me what my problem was but I kind of already knew that I had a problem but

you haven't fixed it and so until you can get something tangible into the

hands of your client that actually fixes the problem they don't tend to see the magic as clearly and so yes there's a

ton of magic in The Upfront of Discovery and understanding and problem identification and solution uh

articulation but until you can get something tangible built in into their hands that then actually has an impact

and a value for their company they're not really gonna care that much agreed

agreed and everyone wants the solution ultimately no matter how you get to it I guess it's this everyone wants the solution in their hands and working

right yes yes and solving the problem that needed to be solved I that's that's the

issue well and this is where the the whole thing is you know we we spent a lot of emphasis on that piece on the Discover piece in this conversation at

least but I guess it's back to I was an old Einstein quote if you had an hour you got to spend 55 minutes fig figuring

out what is the problem and then if you do that correctly the solution part is the part that should come easily if

you've done the first 5 minutes correctly right well let me come back to the the point of where we started the episode which was you've been doing a

lot of process work you've seen a lot of different client scenarios if you were to say at this point the big process problem you're seeing universally across

your pro your clients or the ones that you feel like now you have a unique angle in solving what might that be how would you articulate

that um wow that's a really good question I think as

companies build and grow they they go through the they go through everybody

goes through the companyb building life cycle of I have an idea I want to bring that to customers I want to get paid for

the solution that I have you know whoever your client is has in mind and as they run into problems

moving through that process the knee-jerk reaction to it is I have this problem and if it's an identifiable kind

of quick problem they grab something that exists and plug it into that hole so that they can keep moving and keep

growing and keep experimenting and keep learning and that's awesome that's exactly what they should do let me be completely clear I'm not I'm not pooping

on that part of you know that solution process but eventually by the time you get to the point where you've done that

for a year or 18 months or in some cases 10 years or more what you end up with is

a pile of random products and services that you have sort of duct taped

together to help solve your problems over time and eventually they don't commun those

solution those technologies that you've put together for example you know I bought this SAS product to solve this

problem and this SAS product to solve that problem you've got 50 different SAS products running within your business that are costing you thousands of

dollars every month that we're never really designed to communicate with one another and we're never designed with

the holistic view of your business needs in mind they were designed to solve that one little problem MailChimp was

designed to solve m emailing for newsletters and things yada y y and so to answer your question directly the

thing that we see happening over and over again is that moment of I have a whole pile of crap that I have duct

taped together that worked for a really long time but now something has changed

either one of those pieces of technology that I've been paying for is breaking down or doesn't do what I need it to do

or it hasn't kept up with the growth of my business or that business has changed

and our client is saying hey we really finally cracked the nut of product Market fit or we've discovered a new

opportunity for how to engage with our customers and our internal tooling doesn't align to that how do we sort of

take a uh a first principal look at what we're trying to accomplish here and

pretend for a moment that we're going to rip away all of the pile of stuff that is duct taped together so that we can

focus on building it right for us from the ground up and generally that happens later in a

company's life cycle you know if you look at the way that a small startup gets started for example that's a prime

example of oh I need something that does this I need something that does this I need something that does this and I'm G to put it all together and finally

you get to the point of oh my God I just can't log into another SAS product somebody help there must be a better way

and it's right there at that moment of there must be a better way that we often find people are knocking on the door

going we think there's a way but we can't figure it out can you help yeah I

think you I think you articulated great and it's really fascinating to hear you say that because this Universal problem

which is scaling through what I'm just going to call from summarizing like a patchwork text stack basically it's a

new problem right I mean the ability to like just have sass products and bolt them into your operating model this is

like a last decade kind of trend right so it's almost like this new this brand new scaling problem you're articulating

from a process perspective where you know it and you've seen it well but it's it's people being Nimble but

then it gets to a point where you just can't hold a tech sack like that together and then you've got a critical scaling problem is what you're saying

right which is like you have to almost like pull apart the whole thing and rebuild it and that's beyond most people's capability exactly that's

exactly right and what's interesting there's a couple of really interesting things that you just kind of called out in there Sam you know one is the the

ability to as you said Patchwork together a bunch of different SAS products for example to solve problems

along the way is sort of a last decade last 20 years kind of problem and so in

a weird way what we're actually looking at is almost like a return to uh the days of y when SAS products were not a

thing and where everybody started out by going oh my God I have to go and build a CRM platform from scratch or a whatever

and they were they were building their own internal Technologies and things the other thing that you just hit on that I

think is really important to note in all of this is um at some point you hit that scaling problem of the patchwork can't

scale with you and what we've kind of come full circle to is eventually what

you get to is it might actually be more efficient both from a cost perspective and a Time perspective to then actually

build something bespoke for your own needs as opposed to going out and continuing to bolt new things in to that

Patchwork to make it work for you over time and so it's almost this weird like

coming all the way back around moment of oh hey congratulations it's time to pull on the big boy pants you've outgrown

sass here it's time to like figure out what your own thing might look like I

love it and we're like kind of I can see it in my mind's eye we're building like a life cycle here live on the exact

right but it's like you say it's funny because I haven't thought about it that way either where you have to you're

always going to get to a point where you're gonna have to overcome the hurdle if you really want to like you said put

gas on the fire of having a bespoke system that matches your needs matches your preferences matches your workflow so even though you have all the SAS

offering configuration in a way that only matches a certain scale and experimental phase in a company's life

cycle like if I'm hearing you right it's like you're always gonna have to get back to that massive Salesforce implementation but it doesn't have to be

that heavy vendor anymore it can be your own thing you can make your own solution in a way yes yeah it's funny that you

bring up Salesforce because it was just going through my head as you were talking about it like there are platforms out there that claim to be the

endl and bl and Salesforce is a great example of that but Salesforce is now this gig gigantic like Behemoth of a

piece of software that uh for the I mean realistically speaking most companies

even most large companies don't necessarily have somebody inhouse who could say we're gonna stand up

Salesforce tomorrow and would know exactly how to go and implement it so that it works perfectly for their needs

and so you're gonna end up paying for somebody to come in and either customize

Salesforce to the nth degree so that Salesforce looks and feels like it was

built for your organization right or you just ignore Salesforce and spend the exact same time am time and money that

you would on the Salesforce implementation building something that really is built bespoke for your

business now you get into the conversation of well Salesforce is a behemoth I don't have to worry about Salesforce going belly up I know that

somebody will always be out there who I can hire to fix a Salesforce implementation and yes that is true but

that is also why part of of our business model is helping our clients build out the teams necessary to support the

things that we build for them so that they can carry it forward and take ownership and so sometimes not always or

necessarily even often what we find is that we will build a piece of process

oriented technology for our clients and then we will deploy people from our team into their organization and literally

transfer them over so that they can then maintain and continue the growth of that particular platform for that particular

client that's fantastic so it's really it's building the process building the enabling technology and then making sure

the whole thing can go into play and I think that's a really smart way you're thinking about it because if you don't have any of one of those pieces the

implementation usually fails I mean typically in these types of situations right and the problem is that it may not

fail immediately it may not fail next year but no two years down the road somebody's gonna go oh wow this thing's

been great for the last two years it would really be nice if we could blank and like let's be clear like that's to

be expected because it's the same thought process that got us to the beginning of that project to begin with

of okay this SAS product that we've had plugged into our Patchwork for a while has been working great but now we need

something that does this and you know one of the core operating principles that we happily share publicly at Apollo

21 is we expect our clients to outgrow us and the thing that we are talking about right now is exactly why we

operate under that principle I don't want us to take on a Cent who then

expects that we're going to build something for them and either charge them massive fees over time to keep it

up and running or whatever the case may be I would rather build something for them and help them internalize and

operationalize that thing so that if they'd rather pay us to come back and help them fix build and extend that

where necessary we're more than happy to do it but if they would rather say hey guys this is great I think it's time for

us to sort of fly the nest we're good with that too and not only are we good with it we will help them get to the

point where they can leave the nest on their own yeah that's great and we could probably have a whole another

conversation about the Consulting philosophy that I think is very healthy and you're just describing but I think

for now what I'd like to to end with is if anyone's been listening and is feeling that scaling problem through

various SAS Solutions I think that is a universal problem that Danny very well articulated and there's no question that

he's an expert on helping you get through that so if you're feeling that pain and you need some business therapy

Danny how can people reach you what what's what's your offer to the audience at this point yeah best place to find us

is right there at Apollo 2.io um uh we're active on socials and

all of that fun stuff as well I'm on socials as blah blah blah among many just about everywhere but start with our

website it has literally a dozen or so case studies on it of how we've done

this for other clients what the outcomes are what the results are that they see from what we have built for them we have

white papers that help uh folks on teams understand how to sell these types of

needs into internal stakeholders so that they have the opportunity to bring us into the conversation and then of course

we're sharing blog posts and articles and things like that all the time with uh further thoughts about you know the

world of technology and efficiency and all of that fun stuff so please start on our website and if you have any

questions or if you're excited about what you're hearing reach out to us it's hello apollo2 1.o we're super easy to

find and if you're listening from New York City and you want to come to dinner with me I run a monthly usually Founders

dinner for like earlier stage startups just to meet folks but um we're always open to people in interesting roles

there's there's not many rules around it it's really just a great place to uh to meet like-minded folks so come and have

an actual in-person dinner if you're in New York and uh I would love to meet you ohh that's incredible don't often get

people offering to have dinner on podcast so appreciate that yep I'm here

well thank you so much for the Fantastic conversation for those of you listening thanks for tuning in business therapy we'll talk to you next time thanks for

having me it's been a ton of fun [Music]

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