Discussing Venture-Driven Growth on The CTO Show with Mehmet

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Transcript:

from the heart of Dubai where tomorrow is being built today to the world

welcome to the CTO show with mt here we redefine technology and

reimagine possibilities with mt delve into the riveting Realms of AI cyber security and

digital technology experience the thrilling highs and lows of startups immerse

yourself in the spirit of Entrepreneurship and witness the future of business Innovation being written in

real time now without further Ado let's tune in and explore the

future hello and welcome back to any episode of the city of show with M today I'm very pleased joining me Danny Nathan

Danny the way I love to do it is I to keep it to my guests introduce themselves so tell us little bit more

about you about your background and what you are currently up to so the absolutely yeah thanks for having me

first off um I'm Danny I run a company called Apollo 21 that basically sits at

Danny Nathan's Background and Company Overview

the intersection of an innovation consultancy and a product design studio so we help uh anybody from series a or

later companies or companies that have been around for a while and are looking for new opportunities in technology inov

and Innovation to ideate and build new products to understand what Innovation

really means and how to move beyond the idea of innovation theater and talking about Innovation and really helping

companies understand the um the metrics and the operational and cultural impacts

of a commitment to the idea of innovation and Longevity for their company cool and again thank you for

being with me here today Danny now maybe it's a trial question but you know why

did you choose to focus on something which people might think okay these guys

they have been around for some time are like on a series a or above so why why

you choose to to be in that spot you know uh and not for example being on

Innovation with like new Founders So What attracted you to be with these kinds of companies which is the reason

I'm asking Danny because these guys they think that maybe they have done their job they you know they they are more

more like hard to convince so I would like to hear your your uh point of view on that yeah absolutely Ely there's a

Challenges and Focus in Innovation

there's a couple of things that come into play there um so a lot of the work that we do with growth stage companies

so think series a series B is focused on the operational side of things and

helping them move really Beyond doing things that don't scale so you know we all know the old adage of when you're an

early stage startup you should focus on doing things that don't scale and then eventually as you begin to find find

product Market fit and your company begins to find some stability you end up in a world where doing things that don't

scale doesn't scale which becomes a problem and so for that type and size of

company a lot of our efforts come in around helping them think through the um opportunities to operationalize the

practices that they've been exploring and testing and figuring out kind of what works for them and then on the more

established company side you know a lot of folks talk about Innovation they believe in Innovation they tell their

customers and the markets in general that they are focused on Innovation but when you really did into the activities

and the metrics that they're using to run their business what we find is that um it's a lot of talk and not quite so

much action and So eventually I think um you know folks in a leadership position

in those types of companies often know that they're doing a lot of talking and

perhaps not as much support through action as they could be and so that's where we get called in to help them

think about you know what does innovation really mean if they're talking about innov

or they're talking about the activities that they are doing to establish an Innovative culture um we can help them

really evaluate those activities and understand how growth and scale can stem

not just from finding new customers but also creating new products to attract

those new customers finding new market opportunities and really um building in that culture of exploration and an

entrepreneurial Spirit amongst their their team that can provide the

opportunities for Discovery and the opportunities to think about okay this is what we're doing today how are we

going to survive and thrive into the future and what does that mean for our business and so I guess when push comes

to shove the answer is we like a challenge and we like helping companies that are at that inflection point where

they're going oh we need something new cool I love this Danny and you know I'm

I'm currently reading uh the book by John Chambers the X CEO of of Cisco

connecting the dots and one of the thing that he talks about is like companies usually fail because they keep doing the

great things they are long time so yes exactly so so this is why Innovation is

is really important and you know people sometimes they think that Innovation it's only also for old

established company and I think like in the sense of a startup which is to part

that a scale up so they are on the you know in the phase that they want to expand markets expand you know market

share in maybe other line of businesses so from your experience Danny what have

Importance of Customer Development

you seen the main challenge that they face fa is it like they run out of ideas

is it that they as we were talking they get stuck in in the thing that they do so they they lose sight of what's going

in the market what you have seen you know the number one and maybe two challenges they they they face and they

lack Innovation out of that yeah I mean I think you really hit the nail on the head there the idea is that you know as

companies become established as they grow up as they figure out what works uh

companies begin to optimize for the things that work well today and so what you see is a huge focus on efficiency a

focus on conservation of capital a focus on uh creation of shareholder value

increasing quarterly earnings every single quarter and all of these things are great signs of a company that is

doing well but at the same time they are at direct odds with the idea of innovation and the reason for that is

the more you optimize your company for what's working today the less you are giving your employees your team and your

organization the opportunity to explore in those weird fringes where new ideas

tend to be birthed and so if your team isn't free to experiment if they aren't

uh frankly free to spend some capital on weird trial and air and that could be

anything from uh creating new features on an existing product to creating an entirely new product or business line or

it could be something as simple as partnership or investment opportunities in outside companies that are doing

something in a space that is related to your company but all of these things that I'm talking about that Foster

Innovation within organizations and really provide longevity over the long term um kind of go against the metrics

that a lot of uh growth stage companies are used to using as their North Star

and so you have to be willing to spend a little bit now to experiment now to

figure out what's going to work and what's not going to work so that much like a venture capitalist creating their

own portfolio you have a series of ideas and Explorations that some will pay off

some won't but the ones that do pay off ideally will do so at such magnitude

that they will offset all of the other endeavors that you're doing that fail and so to me that's the number one thing

is freeing up both the mindset and the capital to experiment at the edges so

that you can continue to discover new opportunities that's fantastic now

someone you know I'm again I don't like to say that I play the devil advocate role but you know maybe you know do you

face this like maybe Founders will come and tell you you know dy I understand what you're telling me uh yeah I know

like I should be but you know I have to also work on these metrics we need to keep you know trying we need to keep

pushing before we try to start exploring this and they would say we don't have

time I don't have maybe now you know I I'm running out of cash probably in in

12 months or so you know how I can do all this so what's your answer to them

Danny why are you running out of cash in 12 months my guess is that it's because you have been highly focused on doing

exactly what you've been doing and if you're in a situation where you're going to run out of money in 12 months I hate

to break it to you it's not working it might be working in the short term it might make the next quarter or two look

amazing but when you hit that end of the runway in 12 months doesn't

matter yeah that's that's fantastic answer now

also you know I I want also to D you know to to diversify the conversation so of course I like I like to to speak

about startups but if I want to take this with from a kind of a corporate

perspective right yes uh so why do you think also corporations like they need to focus their effort on you know kind

of a venture driven growth you give that example so what's the advantages you

know they can you know offer they can get from this off related sorry compared to to traditional

growth strategies absolutely so if you look at the way corporations tend to

exist today and the support that they lend towards their existing products and their existing customers uh in my mind

that's exactly how you end up in the weight we have 12 months of R way or you know if your corporation chances are

they've got far more than 12 months but the the issue Remains the Same if you

keep doing what you're doing eventually your opportunities are going to run out and so the benefit of focusing on

Venture driven growth and Innovation especially within a large organization is that you can diversify your Holdings

you can explore new opportunities and you have so much resource at your

disposal as a large corporation in terms of capital that you could potentially

play with in terms of uh presumably a large team of people who are focused day

in and day out on uh making sure that your customers are well served and those

people all have great ideas so the the notion that there is a shortage of ideas even in the corporate space I think is a

misnomer because you have hundreds or thousands of people in a corporation all

of whom I guarantee have great ideas about how to make uh things work

differently or better or new opportunities that could be explored within their division of the

organization and so the more you can free the those people up and give them the permission that they need to try

those things to experiment and ultimately to fail because that's one of the most important things that we talk

to our clients about is that when you're pursuing Venture driven growth it is not a 100% guarantee of every single thing

that you try is going to work and again I liken it to kind of the Venture Capital perspective of instead of

looking at it and going okay we're going to try a hundred things with the expectation that 90 or 95 of them are

going to work you have have to kind of flip that on its head and go okay we're going to try a 100 things and 98 or 99

of them are probably going to fail but the one or two that succeed will probably succeed with such great

magnitude that it will offset all of the other experimentation and so the amount of learning that you gather along the

way and the amount of discovery that gets baked into running robust customer

development processes to looking for opportunities to experiment to think about new business models uh new Revenue

new lines new products that you might bring to Market or again as I noted you know as I kind of nodded to a moment ago

the opportunity to invest in other companies that are upand cominging in the space all provide great opportunity

for that Venture driven growth angle that can provide longevity and so you know a lot of Corporations will look

around and go oh no we have a disruptor that's nipping at our heels we must crush them and the reality is you don't

need to crush them go and invest in them help them partner with them and then you

uh you've essentially hedged against the future if they fail then they're no longer a disruptor that you have to

worry about but if they don't fail then you have invested in them and helped them in their growth effort and you will

see Returns on their success plus you've already cultivated a relationship and if you're in a position where you might

want to acquire them so that their disruptive new product now becomes a part of your offering you're well

positioned to open that conversation and to have greater insight into where the benefit of that type of relationship or

acquisition might be for your corporation cool now Dany if I want to

little bit dive in the way you work with let's go back to the startups and scale

UPS so because you you sit in a position as you when you introduced it's an intersection between consultancy Venture

studio right and uh also uh you know the

Innovation part of it so if I come to you today

as you know probably maybe I have product Market fit um I still have you

know kind of money in the bank and we want and we want you know to start

working together so what I'm trying to understand from a Founder perspective what's my journey and you know where I

would start and what is the end result that I will get working with a 21 yeah

that's a great question so the starting point depends on a couple of things um folks often come to us especially folks

that are in that sort of scaleup position that you're describing uh through a couple of doorways so one is

uh we have a clear-cut problem or opportunity we know that technology can solve it but either we haven't had the

time and energy to commit to finding that solution or we simply don't have the expertise inhouse to explore that

possibility and then really bring a solution to life so in that case uh we start with a discovery process that

looks a lot like um in-depth stakeholder interviews it might include some customer interviews and things like that

we might go so far as to uh run a design Sprint or some sort of Discovery driven

Workshop where we can take that clear-cut problem come up with solutions for it and then zero in on what the um

greatest opportunity at the least resource or capital expenditure might look like um the other way that folks

might come to us is hey we're a scale up and we know that we need to move Beyond

doing things that don't scale and we want to explore where the opportunities for that are but we don't have a

specific idea or problem that we're pursuing and if folks come to us through that doorway one of the first things

that we lean on heavily is the customer development process so if you don't know where to start but you know that you're

in pursuit of something new talk to your customers and I I say this and half the

time people go wait what really um yes talk to your customers because they're the people you are serving at the end of

the day they're the ones that are keeping your alive and they're the ones that can immediately tell you what's

missing from your product or what are the other problems that they're encountering that might be related to or

adjacent to your area of expertise or the area of product Market fit you've

already discovered and they can help guide you towards what might come next

and so we have a very clear-cut process through which we approach customer development and it it starts off wide

where you know we interview customers and and really just talk to them to look for opportunities and problem spaces and

then as we begin to identify those problem areas that we're hearing often so you know by the time we hold 10 15 20

50 customer interviews we've probably started to find a pattern in oh we've

heard this five times and we've heard this three times and we've heard this a few times these are the areas of opportunity to explore and then we can

begin working with our clients to come up with potential Solutions and even before those potential Solutions start

to look anything like what one might call an MVP or before we start building

anything we continue that customer development process and so the first articulation of that solution for us

often looks like a a comic book or a comic strip it's a you know a very short storyboard that gets to the heart of the

problem and the solution that we're ideating and we come back to those customers we say Hey you told us that

you have this problem here's the solution that we think might work for that how does that strike you is that

interesting to you would you find Value in it would you pay for it if so what features absolutely must be there so

that you'd be willing to pay for it and so by the time we get to the moment of okay let's go and actually build

something we have drisk the thing that we're going to build so heavily because

we've talked to people about it over and over again to the point where we know that the thing that we are pursuing

alongside of our client is going to solve a customer need for them that we can limit the number of features that

we're creating the timeline necessary to get something built and into the hands of our customers and therefore the uh

time that it takes to begin getting further feedback so that we can iterate on it and so we approach all of that

through this lens of how can we utilize our customers to help us determine where we can add value to their lives and we

do so with an eye towards drisking and limiting that thing that we're going to build because once we get to the build

stage that's where things get resource intensive got you now just out of

curiosity Danny like do for for um for these startups or even the scale UPS do

you uh like kind as a traditional Venture studio so do you you know

consider them part of your company and then they you spin them out like how does it work it depends on how that

relationship is formed so we do work for higher client work through the Consulting side of the business in which

case we get paid we come in and help and everything is still yours to own Etc and we're we're more than happy working that

way on the Venture Studio side of the business we tend to focus those opportunities on much earlier stage uh

companies and Founders and things like that where we can really get involved and become a business partner there and

so um it just kind of depends on which door you're walking through but the simple answer is we're open to both and

we are always open to creative relationships with with our clients on either side of that fence so even if

they're a Consulting client if you know if we're working with a Consulting client to help them ideate a new product

and then bring that product to Market to the extent that they are willing to talk about you know giving up some equity in

lie of capital spend for example or you know looking at some sort of Revenue share or something like that we are

always happy to talk about creative ways to build that relationship so that everybody has skin in the game and you

know that helps us remain committed remain focused on that idea and it ensures that uh our clients feel like

their success will lead to our success rather than us just trying to pull as much money out of them as possible

through a Consulting engagement and so I guess the easiest answer to that question is we're open to working with

our clients in any way that they are excited to come and work with us and it really just comes down to uh both

organizations working together to figure out what the best fit for that relationship is that's really cool uh

just you know also one thing you you were mentioning and I think a lot of Founders um they miss the point of

talking to the customers and I always refer them uh to to what uh Steve Lang

which is the very wellknown educator and entrepreneur always says you have to go out of the building so you have a have

and then you need to go out of the building and going out of the building means literally to go and talk to customers so and I think and to my

surprise also like when I talk even now with some entrepreneurs and Founders

like you know I as up did you validated this uh yeah we are sure like yeah yeah

then okay how many people have you asked no one okay this is not a validation so you validated from technology

perspective but not as Market need perspective and I think you know this is really really crucial now you know of

course part of what you do also D is you know there's a lot of Technology uh

involved in in the whole process like whether it's consy part whether it's on the um Venture Studio part or or even

the Innovation part so and you know I'm very big fan of the intersection of

technology and the business challenges right so so so from what you see and

what you help your customer with how you emphasize or let's say focus on

using technology to streamline the operations as well and you know Sol

business challenges and the first thing that might come to mind is of course AI so so how are you seeing you know this

perspective of AI in you know impacting in the positive side or maybe in the negative side you know that you know

this operation streamlining for for the startups um you've almost asked two

Operational Efficiency and AI

questions in there so I want to kind of tackle them one by one um a lot of the work that we do is focused on helping

companies streamline operations through the use of technology and we we've had a number of clients that have come to us

with a very clear or a very unclear problem statement and that might be anything from hey we uh duct tape

together a technology stack in order to get to product Market fit we believe that we have now found product Market

fit and we know that our TCH St will not stand up to scale unless we just keep hiring more people because they will

have to make up for where the the shortcomings that in the technology are and so in those cases we have worked

with our clients to literally build out an entirely new operational technology stack on which their entire businesses

run we've had other clients come to us and say uh something like help we're drowning an email and that's it and you

know we come in and help figure out okay well why are we drowning an email and in that particular case what we found was

their process was email and so once again we were back to a process problem that is uh an area that is highly

serviceable through technology and that then of course leads into the AI side of your question which is um or I guess

which I might interpret as do we need AI is AI absolutely necessary in this um if

it's not absolutely necessary how might it be additive and so we actually tell a

lot of our clients that they don't need AI yet and I want to be very clear about the yet AI is coming it will impact

everything every company should be thinking about AI today so that they understand what it does to the future of

their business tomorrow however that being said there's a lot of operational problems that can be solved through

clear-cut well-thought out automation that does not rely on AI to create and

so the couple of examples that I just rattled off in terms of you know our efforts to create operational software

have generally started on the automation side of things and then we use that as

the opportunity to lay the foundation for future AI use cases and so one of the things that we run into a lot is is

our clients come to us and given you know given the hype cycle that exists around AI today there's a lot of folks

that are looking around going oh AI is a thing we need AI but there's not necessarily a clear-cut understanding of

exactly what that means or how their data needs to be structured in order to make use of AI and so by focusing on

what we can help them do without AI today we also then uh build in a little

bit of extra time so that we can at the same time evaluate what their data structures look like whether the data

that they have is suitable to building out for example a bespoke model or whether we even need to go down the path

of building out you know a bespoke AI model for them or if something either more off the shelf or at least an open

source solution that doesn't take as much effort to create might be beneficial for them and so as we're

thinking about AI we're balancing that uh notion of what can we do today to

solve The Core Business problems to have a a valuable impact on the business while we are helping that business think

about and prepare for their future AI Endeavors absolutely so I'm I'm also

like big fan of using the right technology for solving the problem not just trying to see how I can fit that

there yes exactly because you might end up creating more problems rather than solving the problems but yet the

alteration and you know I keep writing this on on my LinkedIn I'm still

surprised you know how many companies still there rely

on pen and paper Believe it or right for like basic things and you know I tell

them guys you don't need AI you know like forget about the big Hypes maybe AI

will be beneficial but before that you need to start to automate some of your processes and then then with time you

will have data and then we can you can start to sit down and think okay maybe we can get out from this an llm model

that does one 12 three right so right yeah so so there are the basics as you said Dy which is 100% true now you know

when I was going over the profile preparing for for the for the episode today and this is something I like to to

ask you about because also I believe the same thing so you believe that failure is a recipe for success I do right I

Embracing Failure and Final Advice

want you to talk little bit about it if maybe you have probably a personal or professional experience where failure

led to significant breakthrough and just between Cotes I tell people I

don't have in my dictionary the word failure because I believe it's a lesson but I would love to hear you you know

your feedback I I think I take a very similar perspective with a very different articulation so I believe very

strongly in the word failure I I have a bit of a personal Mantra that has um

become just that through the course of my career which is fail beautifully and

I have it you know it's up on the wall behind my computer monitor and all of that fun stuff so that I have to look at it all the time and it's a constant

reminder to me that if you're going to try to accomplish something you are inevitably going to fail at some point

along the way and I'm not saying that everybody who goes out to try and build a company or start a startup or build a

new piece of technology is going to fail miserably and therefore that's going to go nowhere but rather in the process of

trying to find that moment of success there will be many failures along the path and a lot of people get kind of

bogged down in their failur you know we're taught from a very young age that failure is a negative thing it is I mean

it's literally the way that we are taught the definition of failure if you failed you have done something wrong you

have not succeeded you have failed and I believe much as what you've sort of

articulated here that failure is really a learning experience and so you know if you have failed this time then you know

what not to try next time and hopefully have a better idea of what you should try that will mitigate whatever that

point of failure was and so to me failure is something to be embraced and that's particularly

important you know as we're talking around the idea of innovation especially at the corporate level um failure tends

to breed fear within organizations people are afraid that if they fail

while doing their job that they're going to to face negative consequences and the more that a leadership team within an

organization can work to help people understand that that is not true

that failure is just a learning experience and really for lack of better terms encouraging employees and team

members to try things that that will fail along the way the more benefit and

learning will come out of that process and so I guess to make a long story short I am a firm believer that failure

is something that should be accepted and in some cases even celebrated and that teams and companies can be stronger

through the um through building a culture where failure is an okay thing to encounter so

as they say in the Silicon Valley fail fast fail often right yes yes yeah so so

the I think the problem with the w failure and you know maybe this is in my

humble opinion because of the education system you know back in the days the place where I grew up so fail means

you're gonna repeat the same class right so so you fa you failed to pass from one one grade to another grade and this is

like a big shame right and you get ashamed and you know the guy he's he s the class oh he's the guy repeating the

same class right so so I I think that this is little bit but you know I always go and tell people look whatever you see

today whether like from the big companies or the new ones that they are emerging like they didn't succeed from

the first try like right whether it's Google Microsoft Apple you just name it right so so all these guys they didn't

become what they are today just you know from the first right so they they needed to do trial and errors they need to do

testing and of course this is how how they get there so 100% so Daddy of

course now because you work with different you know type of Founders you

you work on different projects on a different uh I would say uh maybe

Innovation uh uh initiatives so you must you must be now like having kind of a a

vision of what is the next big thing and of course maybe you will tell me AI I know this but I mean I mean like but

really like in the sense of really the the next innovations that you are expecting or maybe you are seeing from

working with your clients so and I'm not asking on you know usually back in the days we used to ask someone ah what's

happening in the next five to 10 years not anymore so in the coming near future

what are like the major Trends you're expecting to see it like in the market from a new Ventures

perspective um I mean the obvious is AI and you've pointed it out we've talked

about it I frankly I'm tired of hearing about it through an extent so I'm just going to ignore that one AI is coming it's big we're not getting around it um

I think that the other thing that we need to think heavily about is the ramifications of AI and we're already

starting to see it in terms of the way that people are using AI to cultivate massive cold outbound campaigns and

things like that and I the reality is that what's happening is it's becoming much easier to reach people and much

easier to send them a message that um seems like it should be personal but

then you know we still have that moment in AI where it's like just off enough

where you're going H this doesn't really feel like a person wrote it and so it

begins to feel disingenuous and so I think one of the trends that we're going to see upcoming is the notion of how do

we get over the hump of utilizing the new tools that are dispo that are at our

disposal to cultivate meaningful relationships and that might be between

Brands and customers that might be within an organization or between organizations but um I think that we're

still at a point where we haven't figured out what the outcomes of all of these new tools are going to look like

and how it's going to change the way that we interact with one another and communicate with one another and so on

and so forth I think the other big Trend that um that will be interesting to keep an eye on especially is you know you and

I are sitting here talking about the Notions of venture driven growth for example are how large organizations and

corporations will continue to uh defend their Turf so to speak or

continue to maintain relevance as the ability for startups and disruptors to

begin nipping at their heels becomes much and much faster and easier and I'm excited to see sort of where that goes

and what the opportunities are that are cultivated through those relationships as hopefully large corporations and

organizations begin to Envision a world where disruptors and startups are not

necessarily the enemy but are ways for everybody to move forward and benefit

one another absolutely this is my wish also as well you know because Founders Ur

there are always and it's a fact they are seen the rebels they are seen the people who which is true

but I also like start to sense that people now uh appreciate that actually startups

scums to disrupt because you know what they thought that it's the only solution

currently available no actually there are like other Solutions so so 100% on

Closing Remarks and Contact Information

this now Danny as we almost came to an end final advice to people who are on

the verge to become entrepreneurs and you know or Founders who are just starting their Journey so what what you

want to tell them and where people can get in touch with you and you know know more about your services sure uh I

usually share fail fail beautifully when folks ask me this question and I've already put that on the table so uh to

grab a couple of other pieces of advice that you know I I really wish folks had told me early on um one it will always

take longer than you think it will it doesn't matter what it is everything takes longer than we feel like it should

and we we live in a day and age where technology is changing almost by the hour and so we look around and go oh my

God like I should be able to launch this and make money on it create a company and sell it for millions or billions or

whatever of dollars in six months or a year or 18 or whatever and the reality is that you know the the hype cycle

would teach us that uh you know as you noed to success happens overnight and the reality is that it always takes

longer than you think it would so yeah yeah that's my big piece of advice um as

far as where to find us uh we are at Apollo 1 .io and we have a bunch of case

studies there that talk about the projects that we've done the types of work that we have helped our clients bring to life and to share sort of what

types of innovative things we've been working on with with them and more importantly what the results of those efforts are and then of course we also

have a bunch of white papers and uh articles and things like that so if you're interested in anything from how

to broach the topic of innovation within your large company to um what it means

to focus on customer development vment and why it's important to talk to your customers go give those things a read there's a bunch of great information

there and um please reach out we're available at hello apollo2 1.o so we're

easy to find and we're always happy to chat with people and share perspectives and you know talk about opportunities

and how we can help folks bring Innovation to life yeah thank you very much uh Danny just sorry I forgot to ask

and you serve clients worldwide right we do yes we are we are a fully remote

company and we're happy work with folks anywhere and if we need to be boots on the ground then you know airplanes exist

and we're happy to happy to get on this is this is important this podcast it's a it's a global podcast I would say

awesome yeah so so and uh for the folks listening or watching us the link is in

the show notes or in the description on YouTube Danny really I appreciate your insights you know your uh depth you know

knowledge also about you know Innovation uh Venture Studios and how also company

they can disrupt themselves so really really useful and helpful I appreciate you gave us your preious time to be with

me today and this is usually how I end my episode this is for the audience if you just you know discovered this

podcast by luck thank you for passing by I hope you enjoyed if you did so please subscribe give us give up give us a

thumb up and subscribe to the podcast and also share it with your friends and colleagues we are trying to do some

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you know suggestions keep doing so I read all of them I go over all of them so keep doing that thank you very much

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