Discussing Failure and Innovation with Maurice Chism of the That Will Never Work Podcast

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Transcript:

educate Empower enable impact thank you

for tuning in to that will never work

podcast where we share inspiring

information and personal experiences

related to business and the

entrepreneurial Journey from those who

are leaders in their respective field

now here is your host author and

business Coach

Maurice thank you very much for tuning

in today I have a individual who is an

innovator he's a business consultant um

he has done a lot of things in his life

and and I just want to make sure that we

don't uh um mistake you know who this

individual is and and he goes by a lot

of different names too and one

interesting one is the cleaner

and you know but throughout a roller

coaster of a career that has spanned

acting advertising Consulting technology

and now entrepreneur preneurship he has

developed a habit of helping companies

create new products and services and

launch new Ventures but in the past he

has been called a product person u a ux

guy a designer strategist a marketer and

a creative today he is the founder of

Apollo 21 a company which sits at the

intersection of a business consultancy a

product of design studio and a venture

Studio Apollo 21 helps companies Foster

Innovation leverage venture driven

growth and remove barriers to scale by

Building Technology that solves complex

business and operational challenges a

lot of times um we listen to bios like

this and we're like hey you know what um

Danny who's our guest today what does

all of that mean

man yeah that's a fair question it's a

little bit of a

mouthful first off thanks for having me

in uh in simple terms what it means is

we generally help our clients do any of

three things so we help them build new

technology products that they will then

sell to their customers to help develop

a new Revenue line a new market segment

something like that we help our

customers build operational technology

to streamline how work happens within

their own walls and then we also work

with our clients to help them understand

what it means to commit to Innovation

quote unquote uh and what the

operational and cultural impacts of that

effort are and why perhaps perhaps the

metrics and the things that they've been

looking at in the past have stimi their

ability to truly become Innovative so

here here here's a a question because

we're talking about being Innovative

being um ahead of the game a lot of

times we feel as though that what we

think of in our mind has already been

done right and that's number one and

then number two a lot of times people

say hey in order for us to be successful

we have to copy someone else so what is

the the true value of being Innovative

in any

industry uh the true value in it in my

opinion is longevity really when it

comes down to it so if you want to build

a company that's going to last into into

the future and see success over lengthy

periods of time uh you have to innovate

otherwise you're going to continue doing

the same thing that you're doing and

eventually somebody will come up from

behind and they will steal your business

eat your lunch whatever you want right

whatever you want to call it but the

simple fact is that if you're not

experimenting and looking for new

opportunities for growth new ways to

serve your customers new things that you

can bring to market then you're kind of

already on the path towards slow death

so again I'm not creative enough I'm not

imaginative I have no imagination Danny

you know I um I suck at drawing you know

creating stories all those type of

things I didn't do very well in

elementary school when I had to write

book reports for those of us that had to

write book reports right you know so you

know so how do I put myself in that

creative space if I feels though I I'm

not in that space that's actually a

really good question and it there's a

very easy answer to it the benefit of

being an established company and looking

to continue down the path of innovation

is that there's a really good chance

that you've already got customers and

those are the people where your

creativity can come from if you don't

know what to do if you don't know how to

continue to grow your business and if

you don't know what to bring to Market

that will continue to keep you top of

mind and continue to allow you to find

new customers and serve customers talk

to the ones that you already have ask

them what their problems are figure out

where those problems align to your

capabilities as a business and focus on

solving those problems in that tiny

little sweet spot that right there is

innovation so one of the things that

that in order for us to get that type of

information a lot of times we have to

look at the Fe Feb Loop right you know

in any business we got hear the feedback

right but a lot of times when we hear

how to change to grow or whatever it is

we take it as criticism and then our ego

get in the way right yes yes that's a

really good point yeah you have to set

the ego aside and you have to be willing

to hear that um your baby is ugly and

that some people aren't going to like it

and that's fine right you know what we

have to get past is the notion that

single thing has to be perfect and that

we have to be perfect nobody is perfect

no company is perfect no person is

perfect and everybody realizes that and

the reality is if what you're creating

or what you've already create and are

selling isn't perfect for a customer

then they're probably just not a

customer in which case you may end up

not talking to them through the process

that I'm talking about right um but the

reality is that you know there's plenty

of opportunity there for Discovery

plenty of opportunity for growth and you

know you hinted at this a moment ago as

we were talking before we jumped in

Maurice but part of that is becoming

comfortable with failure and failure is

a really difficult thing because we are

taught from the time that we you know

are tiny little things that failing is

bad if you fail to grade you get help

back you get laughed at whatever the

case is you know if you failed to test

your parents got pissed at you or

whatever it was and that works for a

time you know that works when you're

young and a child but the reality is as

we grow into adulthood and particularly

as we focus on what it takes to uh

establish operate and grow a business

failure is inevitable and so one of the

biggest things in my mind to overcoming

the idea that your ego is going to get

in the way is to come to terms with the

fact that failure is not necessarily A

Bad Thing failure is simply how we learn

and so if you look at those failures as

learning experiences and opportunities

to understand for example from your

customers what they want from you what

you have done well and perhaps what you

haven't then what you've got in front of

you is a huge growth opportunity and

that's where you need to focus so in in

a world like today where everyone gets a

trophy even if you just participating

right you know and so again from like

you said from from a young age as of

today we're not understanding that hey

we have to learn from those failure

moments those places where we we did get

second or third place like winning is

not

always yes you get you get the accolades

yes you get the camera you know the the

picture you know all that type of stuff

but you probably win more as being

second or third place because now you

have something to grow from you know

understand where your weaknesses are and

all that type of stuff and a lot of

times we don't Embrace really what

failure really is where it really is a

success moment yes yes I agree

completely you know there's there's a

couple of things that come to mind

immediately as you're talking about sort

of embracing the idea of being in second

place

um one of the rental car companies it

was either Herz or RIS and I can't

remember who was first and who was

second but for a long time had a tagline

of you know I I don't remember it

exactly but it was something along the

lines of we second best and that means

that we're always trying harder to do

well for you the customer and so you

know that's a great mentality to layer

into the idea of not winning quote

unquote the other one that I'll point

out is Apple for example is not

notorious for being a second mover and

taking their time to bring something to

Market where it gives them the chance to

watch and see what's happening and look

for the points of failure where their

competitors are struggling and then fix

those so that by the time they get to

market the thing that they have

created is Apple Worthy is you know is

all of the things that we know and love

hate whatever Apple for um and to your

point you know the thing to keep in mind

here is you know business isn't uh isn't

the Olympics because it's top of of mine

since it's happening right now there's

no there's no silver medal and bronze

medal there's not really a second place

in business you can be the second

biggest business in an industry and be

insanely successful doing so and there's

nothing wrong with that you know if you

can run an insanely successful business

and you're in second place man

congratulations I know

right but but again you know you don't

look at it from that perspective every

gunning to be number one don't realize

that hey you still as you just stated

you're still a success right because you

beat out everybody else at least yeah

it's one of those things that you know

it takes time to sort of retrain your

brain to think about it that way and

that's why I bring up sort of the notion

of failure is ingrained is a bad thing

from childhood it takes years to get to

the point where you go oh wait failure

is not actually a Bad Thing failure is

how I figure out what works and doesn't

work and figure out how to move forward

and so it's it's an intense mind shift

that you have to sort of wrap your head

around and it's going to take a little

while you know you're not going to wake

up tomorrow and go oh yeah I'm good with

being second fine

right you know and so I want to hop back

real quick you mentioned something about

um being Innovative but you also

mentioned apple right and apple coming

out second with a product so they are

they really Innovative or are they just

jumping on again we're just we're not

we're not bashing nobody we're not

talking anybody know whatever but you

know it's just the idea like hey because

being Innovative you have the idea that

hey I have to be number one in that

industry I have to come out with it

first I have to be the one that get a

trademark patent all that type of stuff

first so how can I be Innovative if

someone else has already come up with

that

idea I think that a lot of that comes

down to defining what you mean by

Innovative and

you know to your point a lot of people

think of innovative is oh I have to be

the first person to come up with this

idea and get it to Market I have to

change the way that everybody does a

thing in order to be considered

Innovative and I would pose the question

of is Apple not innovating purely in the

fact that they are running their

business by being second and best not

being second best but literally being

second to Market and doing it better

than everybody else that is an

innovative business model that a lot of

people would look at and go oh huh I

never really thought about doing it that

way Innovation isn't limited to the

thing the the tangible either physical

or technological or whatever thing that

you're putting out into the world

Innovation can come to life as new

business models as new ways of thinking

new ways to approach problems Etc and so

I think again we're kind of short

changing ourselves if we're limiting our

ability to consider ourselves innovators

by whether or not we got there first you

know again get their second do it better

make an impact and I consider that

Innovative and and again we're going

back to that feedback loop right if we

start to look at those companies that

have yes they might have been first but

there are some some issues there might

have been some challenges there might

have been a software flaw there might

have been a design flaw whatever it

might have been there were some flaws in

there where you can kind of grow from

that now all that is not always you

don't always know about it you know at

least from the company perspective but

you hear a little trickling things on

Twitter and Instagram you know whatever

so so um so I think that's that's

opportunities for you to learn and grow

and understand what your the market

really is for that particular product

with that question and I think that I

would encourage companies and people at

companies to think carefully about what

that feedback loop looks like because a

lot of companies consider that feedback

loop oh yeah we talked to our customers

we sent them a customer satisfaction

survey or you know an NPS survey or

whatever that is and that's great

that'll get you some feedback there is

actionable data that will come out of

that but that is not talking to your

customers right that is not engaging in

conversation and to be clear when I say

talk to your customers I mean it kind of

literally go and sit down and talk to

them have this conversation with them

and explain to them hey I'm not calling

you to sell you something I'm calling

because I've seen you've bought three

Apple Computers in the last year just

just to keep on the train of the example

here uh we would love to take 15 minutes

of your time to understand what you love

and more importantly what you don't love

about thing X your MacBook or you know

whatever my coffee cup whatever it is um

you know the the conversation there and

the opportunity to really see and hear

somebody's reactions to the questions

that you ask them and to understand

their problems is so important because a

survey will never inform you of the

emotional side of how somebody is

reacting to something you lose out on

the emotional side of the feedback loop

and in my experience where you find

emotion is where you find opportunity

when people are excited about the thing

that you've put in front of them that's

where you can learn something from them

and perhaps even more importantly when

people are intensely frustrated with

something that you put in front of them

that's a really good place to learn from

people and you don't get that from I

mean you kind of get it from you know a

survey of no I wouldn't recommend this

to a friend but nobody's going to take

the time to really explain to you why

they're not going to recommend it to a

friend you need to get them in front of

you and go okay what part of this isn't

working show me your workflow explain to

me show me demonstrate for me the point

in that workflow where you get really

frustrated and I'm guilty of this I

can't tell you how many times I try out

a new SAS product and I'm you know five

steps into a 23 step onboarding process

going oh my god did nobody think about

this please you know those are the

moments where you go oh yeah yeah maybe

it didn't need to be 23 steps we could

have done that better right right

right you know and I think because

you're talking about the emotion of our

customer Now understand and when I say

customer they're both internal and

external customers let's I just want to

make sure we clear on that too right you

know being our employees so but in that

are do we need to concentrate in our

being Innovative and creative to make

sure that we keep our mission and our

vision statements right in mind as we're

moving forward because sometimes in that

in in in that Innovative or creative

space we get influenced by someone else

and we lose truly who we really are

trying to trying to again get out to

Market yes without question um there's

I'm gonna butcher this because I can't

remember the exact quote off the top of

my head here but um there's a great

statement I think it was by one of the

folks at you know early Toyota who of

course were some of the insane

innovators when it came to manufacturing

and thinking about the processes there

and not only were they Innovative in

terms of manufacturing process but where

they were really unique was the way that

they structured their company and

enabled their their staff their

employees

to understand the core vision of what

the company was after but also have the

freedom to explore ways to achieve what

that vision is aiming to uphold and so

to your point there is a moment in that

where you have to keep that vision in

mind and keep it in check and that's

part of why you know teams are a good

structure you might have an amazing idea

that I might look at and go hey Maurice

that's an amazing idea but you know our

vision and our goal is this that kind of

sits outside of it and at least then

there's an opportunity for a dialogue

where I don't know maybe you have a

different perspective on how to

interpret the vision and you believe

that your idea fits and I need to be

educated on that maybe I come around

maybe I don't but you know the beauty of

having widely enabled teams who are

working towards an overarching goal is

that you have the flexibility to think

about and experiment and try weird

things that may lead to Unique

Innovation and may be totally misaligned

to your vision and either way they're

worth pursuing because maybe there's a

new company that comes out of that or an

entire new product line that allows you

to think how your vision comes to life

in a new and different way and so yes

you have to keep the vision in mind and

you have to keep the overarching

strategy in mind but not so much so that

it limits your ability to try weird

things okay now now let me ask this

though because you mentioned teams but

you know again the listeners they're

just starting out so they haven't quite

developed a team 100% you know but they

might have been trying this particular

item for the last let's say three years

let's give them three years years right

you know so so how do we continue to be

on The Cutting Edge being creative if

I'm a solopreneur and I haven't totally

gone all the way out there as of yet

that's an excellent question I think

that that's a one of the difficulties of

being a solopreneur is that you don't

have the opportunity to turn to the

person next to you your co-founder

whoever it is and say to them I have

this really weird idea am I insane or is

this awesome and knowing that they will

answer truthfully without any kind of

you know personal bias or anything built

in there um but the ways around that are

you know find some advisers or some

people who understand your business that

you can talk to on a monthly basis that

you can bounce those weird ideas off of

find other solopreneurs and small team

Founders who are in a similar spot and

create those networks for yourself so

that you have those people around you

that you can bounce those ideas off of

and you know things like accelerator

programs and um even just co-working

spaces things like that are great ways

to cultivate those kinds of

relationships and those kinds of Team

mentalities even as a solopreneur or a

small team because they give you access

to people who are in a like-minded space

who are pursuing kind of similar ideals

even if they're an entirely in an

entirely different industry they know

what you're going through they know the

trials and tribulations of you know

trying to make it work with a small team

and usually in my experience those

people are pretty willing to have those

conversations because they're every bit

as stared for it as you are and so you

know you can cultivate these awesome

little groups of people that can sort of

serve as sounding boards for you either

formally or informally

so Danny I've heard this before man like

you know I I'm supposed to be in these

groups I'm supposed to go and network

with people and you know I got to change

my breakfast table mentality right you

know you know but I'm an introvert Danny

like I don't know how to get around the

these five people you know that's going

to make a change to help me be creative

but so how do I get over being an

introvert like I don't I don't like

people in my opinion I hear that loud

and clear I to have come to terms with

my somewhat introverted personality um

the way that I have worked around that

is by a sort of coming to terms with and

understanding just sort of what that

means for me and then figuring out where

I'm comfortable where I'm not so for me

for example what I have realized is

going to network events where

everybody's standing around with a name

tag and a cheap cocktail in their hand

or whatever to me is like the most

painful thing you could put me through I

hate that I don't like randomly having

to walk up to people going so what do

you do tell me about it because like I'm

gonna sound like a complete jerk here

but the Ultimate Reality is I have

trouble caring like I don't know why I

should care and in that moment often

people aren't great it sort of

explaining things in a way that makes me

go oh that's really interesting I

understand why I should care but what I

have found for me is that smaller group

environments work really well and so one

of the ways that I've overcome that um

slight tangent my wife and I moved back

to New York about a year and a half ago

after a six-year Hiatus on the west

coast okay and when I moved back I knew

that I needed to you know find my way

into uh groups of like-minded people in

the technology and Entrepreneurship

space here in York and so I started

hosting Founders dinners once a month I

host a small group dinner with myself

and five other Founders or senior level

folks in the technology space in New

York City and it's a much more

comfortable environment for me I have

found that you know five or six people

around a table with a meal in front of

them and there's no purpose there's no

you know there's no 20 questions that we

throw out at the table there's no card

games or anything like that the only

question that ever ask is please

introduce yourself and tell us what you

do and what I have found is that by the

time you get around a table of six

people everybody talking about what they

do takes you know anywhere from half an

hour to an hour by the time you get

through it and people are peppering one

another with questions and all that fun

stuff and really the conversation just

unfolds and so for me that works for my

sort of style of introvertedness because

it puts me in a situation that I know

I'm comfortable with and so to get back

to your question my answer would be

figure out what being introverted means

to you and where you are and are not

comfortable and then use that to work to

your advantage so if you're comfortable

being somewhat Anonymous in a big crowd

go to a networking event and put a name

tag on and see who comes up and talks to

you and have a conversation if you're

like me and you're not that find

something else that works well well you

know what Danny you know I thank you for

coming on a show and you know for some

of us right we're we feel a lot easier I

a lot better when we can talk to someone

whether over a phone through something

like this virtually or even email so

Danny you know I'm looking to be

creative I'm looking to be Innovative in

my industry where can I reach out to you

and talk to you and find out more

information about you yeah first of all

please do I'm more than happy to uh the

best place to find us is on our website

it's Apollo

212. and then of course I'm personally

on socials uh I'm blah blah blah slash

among many on just about everything uh

you can find Apollo 21 on socials as

well if you happen to be in the New York

area and you want to join us for a

Founders dinner please reach out come

they're totally open for whoever wants

to join us and then um the other thing

that we're working on right now that I

think aligns to the type of folks that

you're talking about is we're building

out a what I call a preac accelerator

program and it is explicitly designed

for folks who are at that I have an idea

stage and either don't know how to move

forward don't know how to connect with

people that can help them through the

process Etc and so our goal is to help

guide those folks through the ideals of

customer development to drisk and really

articulate and validate the idea that

they have for their business and ideally

in the process connect founders with one

another in their cohort and then also

with other experts beyond the Apollo 21

team who can bring some sort of help to

the table oh nice nice nice now of

course if you're listening in your car

you know you're listening while you're

working you don't you you don't have the

time of course this information will be

in the description so it will always be

there so you'll be able to go back to

that but Danny thank you very much for

coming on the show thanks for having me

it's been a pleasure sure no problem now

now Danny I forgot to let you know man I

got I have my world famous question that

I ask everybody man my would you rather

question right lay

it would you rather choose three doors

or a fork in a

now there's no parameters no you know

use your imagination right you're

creative right you know so no parameters

so would you rather choose three doors

or a fork in the road fork in the road

and why a

fork uh to me the idea of a fork in the

road represents a journey and all of

this ends up coming down to reveling in

and surviving the journey whether it's

good or bad and whether you're

successful or not and so you know to me

three doors is God only knows knows

what's behind either one but you're

aren't going to go very far in the Next

Room whereas if there's a fork in the

road I can go as far as I want and

figure it out as I go nice nice nice man

you know I appreciate it man I

appreciate you coming

on thank you I'm happy to be here sure

thank you very much and of course thank

you'all for listening to that one never

Word podcast and I'll talk to you a

little

later thanks for listening find us on

social media at Chism grou LLC and check

back weekly for new episodes until until

next time that will never work or will

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